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chief31;225341 wrote:Pure horse s***!
That’s certainly your opinion. Unfortunately, it’s a bad one.
chief31;225341 wrote:With the exception of the first few seasons, Cower was 96-63-1 from ’97 through ’06. And, in that time, The AFC Central/North was a better than .500 division.Really? Minus Pittsburgh (ya know, the team feasting on the weak division):
1997 – 32-31-1
1998 – 28-36
1999 – 41-39
2000 – 39-41
2001 – 36-44
2002 – 18-30
2003 – 23-25
2004 – 21-27
2005 – 23-25
2006 – 25-23That’s 286-321-1. Or a 47.0% division.
So . . . you wanna rethink your math there?
chief31;225341 wrote:And that is allowing you to neglect his first five seasons, where the division was weaker. Over those five seasons, the new HC had a record of 53-27, with four divisional championships.Really? Minus Pittsburgh (ya know, the team feasting on the weak division):
1992 – 22-26
1993 – 22-26
1994 – 16-32
1995 – 23-41
1996 – 29-35That’s 112-160. Or a 41.2% division.
So . . . you wanna rethink your math there?
chief31;225341 wrote:Now…How about that playoff record of 12-9?
12-9 is a “miserable” playoff record?
1992 – Cowher starts 0-1 in the playoffs, despite being the no. 1 seed
1993 – Cowher loses in the Wild Card round, is now 0-2
1994 – Cowher is upset by San Diego in the AFC Championship, is now 1-3
1995 – Pittsburgh beats the 10-6 Bills and 9-7 Colts to advance to the SB. Where he loses. Cowher is 3-4.
1996 – Cowher beats the 9-7 Colts in the 1st round, but gets killed by the Pats in the 2nd, Cowher is 4-5
1997 – Cowher beats NE 7-6, and then loses to Denver in the AFC Championship, Cowher is 5-6
1998 – Pittsburgh misses playoffs
1999 – Pittsburgh misses playoffs
2000 – Pittsburgh misses playoffs
2001 – Pittsburgh gets No. 1 seed, beats the 10-6 Ravens in the divisional round and loses to NE in the championship, Cowher is 6-7
2002 – Pittsburgh beats the 9-7 Browns in the wild card game, then loses to Tennessee in the next round, Cowher is 7-8
2003 – Pittsburgh misses playoffs
2004 – Pittsburgh beats the 10-6 Jets in the st round, loses to NE in the Championship, Cowher is 8-9
2005 – Pittsburgh wins the SB. Cowher jumps to 12-9.
2006 – Pittsburgh misses playoffsHey, you see how it’s only 2005 making his record respectable?
chief31;225341 wrote:Making it to two Super Bowls, winning one, (The other game may have been bought) is “miserable”?Except for 2005, Pittsburgh never beat anyone but those teams they were expected to beat. Many of the games they lost they lost as the favorites. It’s called “choking.” Cowher was an expert at it.
chief31;225341 wrote:This has to be a joke.Do you want some cheese with that whine?
chief31;225341 wrote:And Mike Tomlin, while he has done a fantastic job of sustaining the success that Cower brought, was clearly the luckiest man in The NFL when he took over as The Steelers’ HC. What a perfect situation to start with.Yeah, taking over an 8-8 team with a QB who suffered brain damage in a motorcycle accident was a terrific situation. And do you have an idea how many starters of that 2006 season are starting in the playoff game today?
chief31;225341 wrote:But, four years of excellence is, in no way, comparable to taking a losing franchise and turning it into a fifteen year domination machine.Bill Cowher is like Marty Schottenheimer, if Marty had an improbable run to the SB his final season. No more.
matthewschiefs;225343 wrote:While I agree that it is a moot point I think that Bill Cowher is a very good head coach. He may not have had the toughest divison in football but when you played his teams you always new that you were in for a fight. You can use the weak divson for the regular season but he went to 2 superbowls and won many more games in the playoffs he was playing some really good teams there. he has a 12-9 playoff record that’s not to shabby.But I don’t want a change in head coach. I like Haley he has done a great job as the chiefs coach and I think that he is only going to get better
Let me ask – do you consider Peyton Manning a great playoff QB?
Peyton Manning’s post-season record is 9-10.
Until the 2005 run, Cowher’s was 8-9.
Do you see where I’m coming from?
bwilliams;225346 wrote:Let me ask – do you consider Peyton Manning a great playoff QB?Peyton Manning’s post-season record is 9-10.
Until the 2005 run, Cowher’s was 8-9.
Do you see where I’m coming from?
I think peyton is a very good playoff qb not great. witch is what i said about Cowher. I said that he is a very good head coach. There is a little bit of a jump from very good to great. At least that’s how I look at it.
bwilliams;225344 wrote:That’s certainly your opinion. Unfortunately, it’s a bad one.Really? Minus Pittsburgh (ya know, the team feasting on the weak division):
1997 – 32-31-1
1998 – 28-36
1999 – 41-39
2000 – 39-41
2001 – 36-44
2002 – 18-30
2003 – 23-25
2004 – 21-27
2005 – 23-25
2006 – 25-23That’s 286-321-1. Or a 47.0% division.
So . . . you wanna rethink your math there?
Yeah. Let me rethink the math with a total disregard for logic, like you.
How about Bellichick? Nobody has an issue with his success, do they?
If we eliminate the records of the most successful team in the division, how does that division look?
2010 – 22-26
2009 – 22-26
2008 – 27-21
2007 – 22-26
2006 – 23-25
2005 – 18-30
2004 – 23-25
2003 – 22-26
2002 – 26-22
2001 – 30-33235-260 or a 47.4% division.
WOW!!! That’s absolutely amazing!!!!! The same percentage, when you take away the best team in the division?
Who would have thought that you could remove the most successful portion of a group, and see that the rest of the group is less successful?
Mind-boggling, I know.
But, does it help The AFC North/Central to include that the numbers look even worse because of the fact that they had two expansion teams in there?
So glad I decided to to rethink that. Because it does make it seem like The Steelers were in a tougher division that what he Patriots have been in for the past ten years.
bwilliams;225344 wrote:1992 – Cowher starts 0-1 in the playoffs, despite being the no. 1 seed
1993 – Cowher loses in the Wild Card round, is now 0-2
1994 – Cowher is upset by San Diego in the AFC Championship, is now 1-3
1995 – Pittsburgh beats the 10-6 Bills and 9-7 Colts to advance to the SB. Where he loses. Cowher is 3-4.
1996 – Cowher beats the 9-7 Colts in the 1st round, but gets killed by the Pats in the 2nd, Cowher is 4-5
1997 – Cowher beats NE 7-6, and then loses to Denver in the AFC Championship, Cowher is 5-6
1998 – Pittsburgh misses playoffs
1999 – Pittsburgh misses playoffs
2000 – Pittsburgh misses playoffs
2001 – Pittsburgh gets No. 1 seed, beats the 10-6 Ravens in the divisional round and loses to NE in the championship, Cowher is 6-7
2002 – Pittsburgh beats the 9-7 Browns in the wild card game, then loses to Tennessee in the next round, Cowher is 7-8
2003 – Pittsburgh misses playoffs
2004 – Pittsburgh beats the 10-6 Jets in the st round, loses to NE in the Championship, Cowher is 8-9
2005 – Pittsburgh wins the SB. Cowher jumps to 12-9.
2006 – Pittsburgh misses playoffsHey, you see how it’s only 2005 makiong his record respectable?
Nope.
So he was 8-9 in the playoffs, if you ignore his best achievement?
You don’t want to credit his earlier playoff short-comings to a new HC learning? You’d rather just hold everyone to the highest possible standard?
Meh. Go ahead. He still did pretty damn good.
bwilliams;225344 wrote:Except for 2005, Pittsburgh never beat anyone but those teams they were expected to beat. Many of the games they lost they lost as the favorites. It’s called “choking.” Cowher was an expert at it.Do you want some cheese with that whine?
Cheese? Whine?
Ooooo. Good one.
All the while, you are just reaching for every straw that you can, to try and discredit enormous success.
bwilliams;225344 wrote:Yeah, taking over an 8-8 team with a QB who suffered brain damage in a motorcycle accident was a terrific situation. And do you have an idea how many starters of that 2006 season are starting in the playoff game today?Acquiring a team that has dominated their division for fifteen years, just a year removed from a Super Bowl victory, with a track record of producing great players, to replace great players, and a DC that has learned to run the league’s best defense from the previous HC staying on board isn’t a great situation to start with?
Maybe you’d like to explain what is a better situation to start out a HC career?
I like Tomlin. But sustaining an existing success would be a whole lot easier than starting from scratch.
bwilliams;225344 wrote:Bill Cowher is like Marty Schottenheimer, if Marty had an improbably run to the SB his final season. No more.No more? The 8 wins to that 8-9, prior to his Super Bowl Victory season (So as to discredit him) is like Marty?
That’s just plain wrong. 5-13 is not equal to 8-9.
The fact is that you are trying to suggest that he isn’t that good, by pulling out his best achievements and saying that he didn’t have much success.
I have to think that it’s the chin, itself, that bothers you about Cowher. Because fifteen years of dominance doesn’t really lend itself to much criticism.
Hayvern;225324 wrote:I still believe there is a place for Parcells. I fully expect them to announce that he is taking over as President of Football Operations for Hunt himself.I have heard that as well.
chief31;225349 wrote:Because fifteen years of dominance doesn’t really lend itself to much criticism.This
He might have only won one superbowl but he had his players in postion to win many. You can’t win any if you are not in the playoffs and more often then not he had his team there. He’s a good coach you really can’t say that he isn’t
bwilliams;225346 wrote:Let me ask – do you consider Peyton Manning a great playoff QB?Peyton Manning’s post-season record is 9-10.
Until the 2005 run, Cowher’s was 8-9.
Do you see where I’m coming from?
Peyton Manning has had very little support. From the HC to his OC to his recievers and RB’s to the defense, Its truely amazing that Manning has managed to bring his ragtag motley crew to the playoffs as much as he has this past decade.
Do you see where I’m coming from?Chiefster;225322 wrote:How ’bout Bill Parcells?
He’s had his time in the sun. Time for the new stuff.
chief31;225349 wrote:Yeah. Let me rethink the math with a total disregard for logic, like you.How about Bellichick? Nobody has an issue with his success, do they?
If we eliminate the records of the most successful team in the division, how does that division look?
2010 – 22-26
2009 – 22-26
2008 – 27-21
2007 – 22-26
2006 – 23-25
2005 – 18-30
2004 – 23-25
2003 – 22-26
2002 – 26-22
2001 – 30-33235-260 or a 47.4% division.
WOW!!! That’s absolutely amazing!!!!! The same percentage, when you take away the best team in the division?
Who would have thought that you could remove the most successful portion of a group, and see that the rest of the group is less successful?
Mind-boggling, I know.
But, does it help The AFC North/Central to include that the numbers look even worse because of the fact that they had two expansion teams in there?
So glad I decided to to rethink that. Because it does make it seem like The Steelers were in a tougher division that what he Patriots have been in for the past ten years.
Nope.
So he was 8-9 in the playoffs, if you ignore his best achievement?
You don’t want to credit his earlier playoff short-comings to a new HC learning? You’d rather just hold everyone to the highest possible standard?
Meh. Go ahead. He still did pretty damn good.
Cheese? Whine?
Ooooo. Good one.
All the while, you are just reaching for every straw that you can, to try and discredit enormous success.
Acquiring a team that has dominated their division for fifteen years, just a year removed from a Super Bowl victory, with a track record of producing great players, to replace great players, and a DC that has learned to run the league’s best defense from the previous HC staying on board isn’t a great situation to start with?
Maybe you’d like to explain what is a better situation to start out a HC career?
I like Tomlin. But sustaining an existing success would be a whole lot easier than starting from scratch.
No more? The 8 wins to that 8-9, prior to his Super Bowl Victory season (So as to discredit him) is like Marty?
That’s just plain wrong. 5-13 is not equal to 8-9.
The fact is that you are trying to suggest that he isn’t that good, by pulling out his best achievements and saying that he didn’t have much success.
I have to think that it’s the chin, itself, that bothers you about Cowher. Because fifteen years of dominance doesn’t really lend itself to much criticism.
Do you really have to keep typing in that wierd font? It gives me a headache after two sentences.
Bike;225364 wrote:Do you really have to keep typing in that wierd font? It gives me a headache after two sentences.Stop reading after one.
chief31;225349 wrote:Yeah. Let me rethink the math with a total disregard for logic, like you.Or . . . just be correct. I know, it seems like a tall order. But re-take some high school math and you’ll get there.
And as an aside, you seem to be much unhappier now than when I was last here. Did you dog die or something? Or are you only happy when the Chiefs are failing?
chief31;225349 wrote:How about Bellichick? Nobody has an issue with his success, do they?No one has an issue with Beichick’s success, correct.
chief31;225349 wrote:If we eliminate the records of the most successful team in the division, how does that division look?2010 – 22-26
2009 – 22-26
2008 – 27-21
2007 – 22-26
2006 – 23-25
2005 – 18-30
2004 – 23-25
2003 – 22-26
2002 – 26-22
2001 – 30-33235-260 or a 47.4% division.
WOW!!! That’s absolutely amazing!!!!! The same percentage, when you take away the best team in the division?
And if Belichick were as poor as Cowher in the postseason, people woudn’t be calling him one of the greatest coaches ever.
chief31;225349 wrote:Who would have thought that you could remove the most successful portion of a group, and see that the rest of the group is less successful?chief31;225349 wrote:Mind-boggling, I know.I know this is your way of trying to excuse the fact that the Steelers basically got 4-6 extremely easy division wins a year against the likes of the the Browns, Bengals, and Jags for Cowher’s entire tenure. Unfortunatle,y numbers don’t lie.
chief31;225349 wrote:But, does it help The AFC North/Central to include that the numbers look even worse because of the fact that they had two expansion teams in there?chief31;225349 wrote:So glad I decided to to rethink that. Because it does make it seem like The Steelers were in a tougher division that what he Patriots have been in for the past ten years.Nope.
And if the Pats were only being judged on their regular seasons from 2000-present, no one would consider Belichick a top-10 all-time HC.
chief31;225349 wrote:So he was 8-9 in the playoffs, if you ignore his best achievement?Yes, until 2005, Cowher was a bad playoffs coach. And if 2005 hadn’t happened, he’d go on the Andy Reid/Marty Schottehemier list of good regular season/bad playoff coaches. One good year has retroactively made everyone pretend Cowher was great all along.
chief31;225349 wrote:You don’t want to credit his earlier playoff short-comings to a new HC learning? You’d rather just hold everyone to the highest possible standard?If he hadn’t done better in his first five years than the next five years, you might have an argument. But he did do better, so you don’t.
chief31;225349 wrote:Meh. Go ahead. He still did pretty damn good.Until 2005, no one thought so. Everyone thought he was an underachiever.
Everyone on this board seems to lack long-term memory.
chief31;225349 wrote:Cheese? Whine?chief31;225349 wrote:Ooooo. Good one.It’s an oldie, but goodie, whenever someone is whining. Like you were.
chief31;225349 wrote:All the while, you are just reaching for every straw that you can, to try and discredit enormous success.Going 9-10 in the playoffs over fourteen years is not enormous success.
Andy Reid is currently 10-9 over twelve years. If he wins the SB next year, are we all going to start pretending he’s had a decade of dominance?
chief31;225349 wrote:Acquiring a team that has dominated their division for fifteen years, just a year removed from a Super Bowl victory, with a track record of producing great players, to replace great players, and a DC that has learned to run the league’s best defense from the previous HC staying on board isn’t a great situation to start with?To reverse your quote, you’re only posting the positives, not the negatives.
chief31;225349 wrote:Maybe you’d like to explain what is a better situation to start out a HC career?Off the top of my head, Norv Turner (SD) and Mike Martz (Rams) inherited a much better situation than Tomlin did.
chief31;225349 wrote:I like Tomlin. But sustaining an existing success would be a whole lot easier than starting from scratch.You don’t see the irony of this when discussing Cowher’s career?
chief31;225349 wrote:No more? The 8 wins to that 8-9, prior to his Super Bowl Victory season (So as to discredit him) is like Marty?chief31;225349 wrote:That’s just plain wrong. 5-13 is not equal to 8-9.The fact is that you are trying to suggest that he isn’t that good, by pulling out his best achievements and saying that he didn’t have much success.
It isn’t just how much they lost. It’s that they continually lost as favorites.
chief31;225349 wrote:I have to think that it’s the chin, itself, that bothers you about Cowher. Because fifteen years of dominance doesn’t really lend itself to much criticism.Or, maybe it’s because I can actually make and retain memories, and I haven’t forgotten Cowher’s records and reputations before 2005.
Bike;225359 wrote:Peyton Manning has had very little support. From the HC to his OC to his recievers and RB’s to the defense, Its truely amazing that Manning has managed to bring his ragtag motley crew to the playoffs as much as he has this past decade.
Do you see where I’m coming from?I like Manning. I think he’s, technically, the greatest QB ever.
But he hasn’t been able to translate his regular season success into playoff success. There are a lot of reasons for that, and not all of them are him. But the Colts have done their best to continually draft him top skill players. You ever look at the Colts 1st rounders since they drafted Manning:
1999 – Edgerrin James (RB)
2000 – Defense
2001 – Reggie Wayne (WR)
2002 – Defense
2003 – Dallas Clark (TE)
2004 – No 1st rounder
2005 – Defense
2006 – Joseph Addai (RB)
2007 – Anthony Gonzalez (WR)
2008 – No 1st rounder
2009 – Donald Brown (RB)
2010 – DefenseThey’ve drafted Manning 3 first round RBs, 2 first round WRs, and 1 first round TE. That’s six skill position players. They also traded a 1st rounder for Tony Ugoh (LT) and used their first pick of the 2008 draft on a C.
That isn’t a “motley crew.”
Manning just fails to win in the playoffs. I think a lot of it is that he’s bad (well, not as good) against 3-4 defense, and most defenses he’s lost to in the playoffs have been 3-4 ones.
matthewschiefs;225347 wrote:I think peyton is a very good playoff qb not great. witch is what i said about Cowher. I said that he is a very good head coach. There is a little bit of a jump from very good to great. At least that’s how I look at it.I think most people would disagree with you about Peyton Manning’s being a very good playoff QB.
But if you think he’s good, I understand why you think Cowher’s good.
bwilliams;225388 wrote:I think most people would disagree with you about Peyton Manning’s being a very good playoff QB.But if you think he’s good, I understand why you think Cowher’s good.
Peyton has become a very good playoff Qb over the years he has won many playoff games. I don’t think that he is a great otherwise he would have a winning record in the playoffs.
When you get into a playoff record I think that ANYONE that has a winning record is a very good coach. You are playing the best of the best when it comes to playoff games. Winning more then you lose is good in the regular season VERY good in the playoffs.
matthewschiefs;225391 wrote:Peyton has become a very good playoff Qb over the years he has won many playoff games. I don’t think that he is a great otherwise he would have a winning record in the playoffs.When you get into a playoff record I think that ANYONE that has a winning record is a very good coach. You are playing the best of the best when it comes to playoff games. Winning more then you lose is good in the regular season VERY good in the playoffs.
So . . . would you agree with me that, prior to 2005, Bill Cowher was not a good playoff coach, as he had a losing playoff record in the fourteen years until then?
My point, just in case it’s being missed, is that Cowher’s current reputation is entirely dependent on 2005. That people have forgiven him almost a decade and a half of futitility and playoff chokes based on one fluky SB run. That unless you’re willing to give him fifteen years and unlimited suport, you’re not going to win much with him.
Look, I understand your rubric. But I don’t agree with it. I’m not going to call guys like Barry Switzer and Andy Reid great playoff coaches. Hell, by your rubric, Norv Turner is a playoff win away from being a very good playoffs coach. I’ve seen Norv Turner, Andy Reid, and Barry Switzer coach and they aren’t very good anythings.
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